One thing I wanted to ask you, as well, about that: obviously if the New World Order is coming in, and if people are being conditioned to be more docile, obviously getting at children is going to be a very important aspect of that plan. I'm just wondering if you've heard about something Mattel is marketing these days, I believe in time for Christmas, although I'll have to check up on this. It's something called Moon Goddess Barbie. Now, apparently it's Barbie with a pointed hat, a sort of wizard's hat, various moons and stars around it, and carrying a wand. Now, I've been told that it's available in a limited edition, something like $200 or something ridiculous like that. But do you think that might be part of the conditioning that we can, unfortunately, look forward to?

Yeah, but you know, one of the things here, again I want to be careful. One of the things, Hugh, is when you start a snowball thing, you know, it sort of goes out. I mean, in other words, I have written things that I know are unique. And two years later, you know, it goes from one person to another, one organization, one newsletter, etcetera, to another. And it comes back, sometimes in the same form, almost my words. But the person that writes it in some article somewhere doesn't even know me. It's not plagiarism, it's just how the things happen.

So, there's no doubt, I think, that these men I talked about are occultist. And they certainly have, they have given great sums of money to occult New Age organisations. Now, that then, they have started then, let's just call it fads -- occult fads. Pagan fads. And then things spiral out and have their own lives. So that, let's face it, you turn on a tv now and everything you see are wizards and demons and devils. The X-Files Syndrome, I call it, you know? UFOs, strange creatures.

So, it's not necessarily that there's some member of the Illuminati that tells Mattel Toy Company, "I want you to do this." They know that there's a market out there for these kinds of things. I go around to, my wife and I will be shopping, and we actually will go to a shop that's owned by Christians. And you'll find little bitty figurines of wizards and sorcerers. And I ask them, "What is this?" They say, "I know, it's terrible, but you know, that's what people are buying." And I say, "Do you even know what it means, what these things mean?" "No, I don't know." But of course, many teenager do, because they play all these games, you know: Dungeons and Dragons, and worse today. They know. Many do. And many witchcraft people and such know.

But, so I don't give a lot of slack to people, and don't accuse them, everything of being a plot. But I do believe that there has generally been -- you know, you just set the ball in motion, and that ball will roll a long distance. But there is no doubt -- you know, let me give you one example.

One of the things that the elite want to do is to bring forth a world religious system of unity. Now, you may say, "Oh, that will never happen. I mean, religions have always fought." It will happen. They're not concerned that a Muslim become a Baptist, okay? Or you know, an Episcopal or a Church of Canada person become a Buddhist. What they -- they are looking for something they call tolerance. They're looking for everyone to say, "You have your religion, I have mine. Let's get along. Let's not claim exclusivity. Let's not claim that my religion is better than yours. Let's not say that my god is better or different than yours. Let's not say that my set of scriptures is superior. That would be hate. That be intolerant. That would be unloving. Let us all have..." -- and listen to this word, this term -- "...unity in diversity."

And of course, everything the Bible says is totally opposite that. You know, God said in the ten commandments, "Thou shalt have no other god before me."

Right. There's not a whole lot of room in the Bible for diversity.

There's no diversity. There's a lot of people that reject the Bible, but that's okay. The Bible says that will happen too. But you certainly can't say that Jesus said, "Go out and worship all the false gods. And really, don't say that your father in heaven is superior to them. That would make people feel bad. And that would be very hateful." And so, this is the current theology.

Now, there's a reason for this, of course. Remember religion, remember Mao Tse-Tung said, supposedly -- of course, sometimes you wonder how much of anything is real...and so much is manufactured by the CIA and so forth -- but he was quoted supposedly saying, "Religion is the opiate of the people." Well, I believe false religion can be like an opiate. And it can be used to control. I even think that there are Christian churches that have gone the wrong way and are abusive of people, and controlling. So certainly there's all kinds of cult groups and such.

If this be so, then religion, you know, could be, become the opiate of the people, and you want to try to drug the masses, what would you use? Well, religion. And so if you have an out-of-control world that you want to conform to a New World Order image and have a docile people, one way to do that is to establish a religious system.

And so it was that in 1992 they had some -- 1993, excuse me -- in Chicago they had a strange convention. Some 7,000. It was called the Parliament of the World's Religions. I researched very heavily and I found -- through public documents, I might add -- I found the foundations that were sponsoring this were all Rockefeller-funded. It was held -- some of the meetings were held at the University of Chicago campus, which is heavily Rockefeller-funded. And of course, the Rockefellers are known to be members of other, globalist organisations: the Trilateral Commission -- in fact, almost the masters of the Trilateral Commission -- the Council on Foreign Relations, etcetera.

Here for some reason, these monied men wanted to have a Parliament of the World's religions. There were witches, Jains, Muslims, Buddhists, Christian -- every stripe imaginable was there. And the theme was, we need what they call a global ethic, and unity and diversity. And we need - - listen to this -- a United Religions, just as we have a United Nations. We have a World Trade Organization. We need a United Religions. And coming out of that was Rockefeller funding for a United Religions. And there is a Bishop William Swing in San Francisco now setting that up. And they say that as the year 2000 dawns there will be a United Religions. The headquarters will be the Presidio, a former army base, at San Francisco. Again, these are all documented facts.

And that's where Mikhail Gorbachev has his foundation, isn't it?

That's right. Now, Mikhail Gorbachev invited the men -- Bishop William Swing of the Episcopal Church of the U.S.A. -- to his State of the World Forum and from that, the spirituality -- Mikhail Gorbachev himself said we need a global spirituality that honours the sacred earth. So now we have the theology. Whatever stripe or religion you are, the main theme of the Illuminati, the elite, that you will have is, our sacred mother earth, how to protect here.

Then you see, now we go a little step further. So we have this setting up of religion. How does this get into earth? We suddenly have the environmental organisations. Then you go some steps further, then you do research, and you find out that the environmental organisations -- the footsoldiers. Some conservatives like to call them the great unwashed. They're the hippies of the 60s and 70s. Now they have the cause of saving the earth. All right? All right.

Now, there they are at Kyoto, Japan, Hugh, and they got us all -- I mean, these are the -- I call them, talk about the fear mongering. We've never seen anything like fear mongering, like fear mongering from these people. I mean, nothing that I can say about Jesus coming again and Armageddon could compare to the fear mongering of the Sierra Club, Earth First! and all the other environmental wackoes. They are Chicken Little, the original Chicken Little, saying, "Everything is falling down! Mankind is going to die! We need to have global depopulation! Mankind is like a virus! We need to remove man!" It would be best, some are saying, it would be good to have Ebola-type viruses to kill off man so that nature could flourish. I mean, these are insane. Hitler said things like this. And today, environmentalists say it and everybody claps their hands! It's amazing!

So religion is being used as a stepping stone -- A unity of religions being used as a stepping stone --

The theme is environmentalism of religion. Now, here's the whole thing, though: you find that the environmental organisations themselves are all funded by the elite. I mean, the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, Earth First! -- You go behind the scenes, especially of The Nature Conservancy -- You go behind the scenes, and you find -- Goodness, oh -- so they receive so many millions and millions and millions from this foundation and that foundation and this foundation. Again, we traced the money of those foundations, and it all goes back to the same men who founded the Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations, the Trilateral Commissions, the Parliament of the World's Religions.

Now, I don't think -- I think it's really humourous -- I could actually give you from public documents a list of the money, of the actual monies given to, let's say, The Nature Conservancy. And can you imagine these environmentalists going around talking about the big bad oil companies, when it's the big bad oil companies that are giving them all the money to do it? You know, Exxon is so bad, their Valdez polluted things. Well, golly, I didn't know that Exxon gave, you know, $26 million to The Nature Conservancy. Oh, my. So, in any case, and then you, of course, you realize that Standard Oil company, which was broken up in 1911, was the monopoly of the Rockefellers, and that's spun off Exxon, you know, and all the other various oil companies, which through trust and interlocking directorates are still controlled by the same people.

So basically, whatever -- and this is why, when they have NAFTA -- the little environmentalists, the person that recycles, and wants to really do something to stop pollution -- I mean, good people -- we all should be environmentalists. They said, we cannot have NAFTA because we will have to export all of the horrible pollution and everything from Mexico, because they don't have the standards. Then the little bitty environmentalists didn't understand why all the huge environmental organisational leadership suddenly came out and said, "yes, we're all for NAFTA." Al Gore: "We're for NAFTA." Your prime minister, Jean Chretien, his campaign said, "I will oppose NAFTA and the World Trade Organization." The day after he was elected, goodness, what did he have, some kind of religious experience? And the next day -- I don't think it was a week that went by. Suddenly he changed his mind. So this is what happens, he said that for public consumption and then zingo! There he is, your prime minister, he's doing -- Jean Chretien will do anything the big boys, the Maurice Strongs and all the others tell him to do. The guy's a puppet, let's face it.

Something else I wanted to ask you about as well, a bit of a local thing, at least for me. Your September issue of Flashpoint -- I was quite surprised that there was a picture from the West Ender, another free weekly magazine. I'm just surprised that this would have, would have gained your attention. There was a picture of Dr. Hedy Fry celebrating her victory in the election to the parliament. And there was a picture from the West Ender of her sharing a drink with Ruby Stone, the drag queen and transvestite. Now, I was just surprised that something in a small local paper would have gotten to your attention like that.

Well, again, we have a lot of Canadian people that send us material, and I love hearing from Canada. And so, I saw this in a newspaper, and I said, "Well, how interesting." And I wasn't trying to single this person out, because here in America, I mean, Al Gore just went to a big meeting of Hollywood homosexuals, complimented them. And Clinton, here in the United States, I mean, I've talked to people from Arkansas that said he frequented the gay bars regularly as President. And many claim he's bisexual.

Oh, really!

Oh yes. So, and of course Hilary. Goodness gracious, what can I say about her exploits? Let's just call it that, leave it at that.

Okay.

Yes, but I think that Canada is actually more advanced than the United States as far as the New World Order is concerned.

This is, yeah, this is something I want to ask you about. Because in a lot of these, in a lot of your newsletters there's not a whole lot about Canada. Which is understandable -- you're in Texas, you're in the States, that's where your concern lies. But for those of us in Canada, I mean, we're quite, obviously, concerned about where this all might end up for us.

Well, you know, I visited Winnipeg. I guess it's been three years ago. I spoke at a church called Calvary church, a historic church in downtown Winnipeg. And I found it very interesting. They had a radio talk show host there. I think his name was Peter Warren. He was a very popular talk show host there, and Mr. Warren invited me to come on. And people told me that the man hates God, hates Christianity, and is a very vulgar man. Which of course greatly encouraged me to go on his program, you know? Because I don't want to shy away from people that don't like me. I mean, I hope I can win them over to liking me, Hugh, or at least, you know, their audience if not them. So I agree to go with him, though I knew he would attack me severely.

First thing that he did, his first caller -- you know, it was one of these set-up deals. Which I understand, you know. Again, I'm not upset about it, it happens so often to me on liberal or those kind of programs. But Mr. Warren there in Winnipeg -- first caller was a witch. She identified herself as a witch, and a member of a local witches craft group, and she said some very horrible things about me.

Her contention was that I was in violation of Canada's hate crime act. Because I had spoken out about witchcraft and Freemasonry. I had exposed the Masonic Lodge and their evil works and their rituals and so forth, and witches, and said they were of the devil. And she said she had gone down to the Winnipeg police and filed a formal complaint against me. And Peter Warren joined her warmly and said, "Well, congratulations, I agree. This is a horrible man."

And I had a good time, you know, on the program. It was splendid. Now, it was interesting. The very next day, my wife and I were driving around Winnipeg, which is a very pretty city. And you know, I love Canada. That's one of the things. I love greenery. That's why I'm attracted to Canada. Just a beautiful place. And the people there are so friendly. Except maybe the witches, and some of the others [laughter] that hate me. But in any case, there I was. I was going sort of slow, you know, I was just trying

[This is where I had to turn over the tape. You're smart, you'll pick up the thread.]

thought in my mind was, I guess, I'd run afoul of, of Canada's hate crime act. And anyway, the policeman got out and he said, "Sir, I saw you had a rental car from the United States, and it appears you're lost or something. Can I be of assistance?" And he was the nicest guy. I said, "Yes, I can't find my hotel!" I wanted to get to my hotel then, I was lost, just looking around, I figured I'd run into it. He said, "Sure, I'll take you there." And he took me right to my hotel. Very nice man. So that was my police experience, you know, very pleasant.

But the thing is, Hugh, is that, do I hate witches? Uh, yeah, I hate their works. Of course I do, I despise their works. And, and I'll be glad to preach to witches. Now, to hate is to want to destroy someone. The Bible says that Jesus, he -- this is right from the Bible -- Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil. But the Bible says -- I don't mean to preach to you, please forgive me, you didn't call for that -- but the Bible does say that God wishes that no one perish, okay? See, there's two statements: he came to destroy the works of the Devil, but God wishes no one perish. But he wishes, he wants all men -- and women -- to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

So to me, yes, I hate their evil works, I do. And when a witch renounces that and comes to the truth, it comes to themself, then yes, I rejoice in that, I'm glad for it. And so in that sense, Masons -- even today, I must tell you some of my very best friends are Masons.

Really.

Sure. And I preach to them all the time. And you know, they barely tolerate me. But we have other interests. I try to reach them for Christ.

In any case, but my point is -- goodness, if you hate a person you want to destroy them personally. If you love a person, or at least have respect for a person, then you don't want to see them do harm to themselves and to others. That's the real difference, I think, with Christians and maybe even some of other religions, other religions that have compassionate values as well.

So, in any case, that was my experience there in Winnipeg. The police never bothered me. I spoke three or four times at the conference. It was attended by about a thousand people, probably -- I don't want to over- exaggerate -- maybe it was eight hundred, you know, I don't know, eight hundred to a thousand, each of the sessions. And probably, you know, even on the radio program, Peter Warren asked me if I had any final thoughts.

I said, "Yes! You know, it's been a pleasure being with you, and I want to invite people to come hear me speak, and they can judge for themselves." That's what I always say: people can judge for themselves. I don't cram anything down anybody's throats. So they judge for themselves. And so, in any case, I know Peter Warren, several people have written me since then, he's still mad at me for being on his program. He still mentions me up there sometimes. So that's sort of what has happened to me in that respect.

Now here's the point on this. I believe in the liberty and freedom given to us by our nation's founders. Now I know that y'all have a different experience. But nevertheless, there is the fiction, the myth in Canada of freedom and liberty.

Now there's one group that I think are, they're evil in their works. And that's neo-Nazis. You have a group like that, I think Zundel is in your area. And there are these commission hearings about that. I'm totally opposed to Zundel and this Holocaust revisionism. Now, here comes the problem: does not Zundel have a right -- in fact, let me say this. Did not those witches have a right to call Warren's program? I think so. I don't see any problem with that. And if I can't take the heat as a Christian, then I'll get out of the kitchen, as Harry Truman said. I think that witches have every right in this life under Canada's laws that should be, that should exist, to say their piece. They can get on that radio program and blast me all over the place, call me names, I don't care. Oh, well, I lie. It may hurt my feelings. But you know, that's life. So I'm a big boy.

Now, I think Zundel has every right to do that. And, and I want to add, I think that Jewish organizations and just good Christian folks of all stripes have every right to say, "Zundel, you are a nut." Hitler was a maniac, and I don't care if it was one hundred thousand or six million Jews-- You know, let's face it: there was a holocaust. We can quibble about numbers, but I'm not going to quibble about numbers. If he killed fifty people he was a monster.

The essential facts remain the same.

Yeah, but in Canada -- goodness gracious! I have had books of mine returned from Canada. I have had-- Many publishers in America -- I can name you a number of authors of books -- I'm not talking about neo-Nazi books. I'm talking about books that expose the New World Order and the elite, written by conservatives and liberals that have been rejected by your, even after NAFTA, by your postal authorities, and labelled as hate materials. I find that interesting.

So if I write a book on the Masonic Lodge, right? I don't say, go out and burn Masonic lodges. I think that would be terribly evil. But I say what goes on behind those closed door is Luciferian. Absolutely. Are the Masons themselves Luciferians? No, I think most of them are just ignorant good ol' boys, we call it in Texas. And they don't know. They don't know any better. You know, if they're a Shriner for example, I mean, they bow down before an alter and make a oath, a blood oath to Allah and Mohammed. Then next Sunday they go to church as a Christian. A little weird. They say, "I didn't really mean it, it was just part of an act. It's sort of like a, you know, some kind of a, you know, play game." I wonder what Jesus thinks about that.

In any case, I expose these things. I expose them as they should be, as I have a right to do. Now the Masons can come back and say, "Texe Marrs is a bad boy. He writes these things." And if I write anything that's inaccurate, they should say so. But they won't give specifics, because they claim everything they've got is secret, they don't want to reveal anything. So they just sort of make personal, ad hominem attacks on me. "He's a liar! What he said is untrue!"

But then they won't go into specifics. And the reason they won't is because I always quote Masonic sources. I don't go to Christian sources, because then people would say, "How does that person know?" I, the only Christian sources I go to are Christians who used to be Masons, left the Masonic Lodge, and now they're willing to tell all.

And this still gets you into trouble with the postal authorities?

Oh yeah! Now why is that? Why are the postal authorities protecting Masons, and why do they protect these groups, like the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission? Why do they protect these things? I think that's very interesting. Is that hate crimes to do that? I mean, the Trilateral Commission building -- excuse me, the Council on Foreign Relations building, I have the address, I have a picture of the building itself, I give the address in my book, one of my books. I don't tell people to go down and bomb it. Why? Because those people have every right to go in there.

I even think that the elite have a right, as long as they don't break the law, if they can find some way to get power, control and money without breaking the law, they have every right. But they are breaking the laws. And I have a right to expose them. And I keep my books out.

And listen to me very carefully, and I want you to understand: I'm not advocating Mr. Zundel and his works. I think he has every right to write what he does. I remember a professor there, and I forget his name, wrote some book -- Driscoll, I think his name was. He sent me his book, his books, and I wouldn't promote him because I didn't agree with him, what he said in there. I didn't see them as Christian-oriented. And then I understand later that he was reprimanded, I don't know if he lost his university job or what, but the hate crime squad -- you know, the nanny squad -- got after him.

I think the professor -- I rejected his books. I had a right to. You may have a right to. You have a right in The Loop magazine to say the worst things about Driscoll if they're true, and if it's not libel, right, and defamatory, because that's bad. But you can say, "His book is cockeyed. I don't agree with it. It's nonsense." And you can, say, give specifics. And you can say, "I don't agree with what he's saying, and if you go along with him it can be harmful to society." You can do anything you want. Or I should say, you should be able to.

As it stands now, yes, you can criticize Zundel and Driscoll. But let Driscoll and Zundel say something about somebody, organizations that liberals don't like, and suddenly, or you know, [garbled], suddenly they want to put them in prison, they want to muzzle them. I don't think so.

Here in America we have KKK guys. Every once in a while they will -- You know there's only seven or eight of them, probably -- they will want to go down my city here and demonstrate. I think, give them the old banner and let them go. And I also believe that people should be able to get on the sidewalk and laugh and heckle them. Okay, does that make any sense?

It does, it does.

Yeah, so, a lot of people think I just want to shut folks up. No, I don't want to do that. But I do want the free exercise of religion in our constitution, free speech, I really don't know what Canada's equivalent, but I know Canada has a history of being free. And what we see now is under your hate crime act, one of the things, the way it's described to me, in your provinces, I'm not sure it's national, it states that if you write or say anything that might bring discredit or ridicule or scorn to a specified group, that's a hate crime. [garbled]

Well, let me just tell you right away: I believe that all those people that refuse Jesus Christ, believe in him, will go to Hell. I do. I really do. That includes Buddhist, you know, Hindus, etcetera. I should have the right to say that.

So you feel that perhaps Canada, in some ways, is a testing ground, or is pointing the way, that the elite, this elite clique would like to take things, that we're perhaps--

Absolutely.

Five or ten years ahead--

I think Canada-- It's interesting. You see, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- you have a different system than us. And one, in one way, you do not really have the protections we have. Because of our constitution, our Bill of Rights, and the court system here, even though they keep packing the courts over and over and over again with judges that will re-interpret the constitution, there is still-- so far, I mean, I'm talking to you, right?

But I must say that I've had visits, or calls by the FBI. Why? Why should the FBI call me? If this is a free country. You see, so even, there's a, let's just call it an intimidation there. Now they didn't say, "We're going to arrest you." They just said, "Tell us about your ministry. What are you doing there? What do you think about the Militias? What about this? What about that?" And I'm thinking, man, there's murders, there's crime, there's drugs, everything going on -- they want to talk to me? You know? [laughter] What for?

Flattering in a weird sort of way.

And I guess there's the whole thing: why waste time on Zundel? In fact, if you didn't give him any publicity, the guy would just vapourize and go away. That's my opinion. Because nobody really believes in that junk, except a few crazies.

But Canada makes a point of it. I think right now, the majority of Canadians say, "It doesn't affect me. I'm not interested in exposing the Masonic Lodge, or the Illuminati, or the elite. It doesn't affect me." But you see, this is what in every society eventually had a breakdown of society and lost their freedoms, that's what all the people say. In Russia and Germany, etcetera.

At first the people say, "It doesn't affect me, so I don't want to sacrifice, or I don't want to do what's necessary to correct this injustice." But believe me, Canadian's will find out the heat will get very, very big in Canada. And I think it will happen, probably the real hard times will come the same times they come to the United States. But there's going to be inevitable over the next few years, escalation of the taking away of the rights of the people of Canada.

How soon do you think that's coming?

I believe that there very well could be a contrived financial chaos very soon. It may be that what has happened in Asia in the markets will cause a domino effect.

That's interesting that you mention that, because in Canada, or in Vancouver rather, just a couple weeks ago we had the APEC conference, the Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation conference, that occurred just at the same time that a lot of that was going on.

Yeah, you know the Prime Minister of Malaysia made a speech that the New World Order boys hated. In fact, he spoke -- it may have been at APEC, I'm not sure -- I have a full, the full address. But he blamed the money speculators for the fall, the currency speculator George Soros and others, for the fall of Asia.

I remember that speech.

He said, "The thing that they want to do is keep us Asians down." It appears as if we were going to attain the economic status of the Europe and North America. This could not be allowed. And therefore, the super-rich did this on purpose, and drove us into the ground." And I'm paraphrasing, but that's what he said. And James Wolfenson, the International Monetary, excuse me, of the World Bank, you know, sat there, and they said a scowl was across his face. And Kim Dessus, of the France, of the, you know, the IMF, the same way, they hated this guy saying that.

But it's true. But I believe, you see, labour is so cheap over there. And they've got to keep it cheap. They can't allow Thailand and Malaysia and Indonesia to rise in their levels of income. Why, then they couldn't pay twenty-five cents an hour to slave workers. So they drove those countries down. And some people say that they're going to do, that if it works over there, then they'll do it in Canada and the United States next. Because they don't really want to pay fourteen, fifteen dollars an hour to a Canadian auto worker, do they, if they can get it cheaper.

Right now, they, there's a certain amount, of course, the plants and the factories being sent overseas. Now that has happened too, but there's only so much of that that you can do. And so, I really think that they're probably going to equalize things around the world. So probably we're next.

Okay. Um, something else I wanted to ask: a lot of your opinions, at least politically, seem to correlate with things that people on the left of the spectrum, we'll call it, would say. Especially the concerns about international movement of finances, and the keeping of a cheap labour pool in Asia, things like this. Now, you said earlier that when it comes to dealing with the elite there's no such thing as left or right, it takes a concerted effort to battle them. But how do you feel about, about sharing these political views, or perhaps working, if not directly in tandem, at least with a certain shared spirit with people who don't share your religious views?

I really do. I am amazed at the number-- I go in, I go in New Age bookstores and liberal bookstores and find my books. I think a certain number of people, and I get some internet stuff, you know, the people are sending out on different channels, and I'll get the typical liberal letter will say something like, "You've got to read Texe Marrs' newest book, Project L.U.C.I.D. Now, there is a certain amount in the book that you'll just want to brush off. This guy is a religious fanatic. However, his documentation exposing Big Brother and secret societies and the New World Order is fantastic. So you know, try to stomach what he says about Jesus and all that, and you know, take that with a grain of salt, and you know, take in the other."

So you know, that's sort of their attitude. But you know, that gives me an opportunity to say, "Well, you know, those people will be reading my books, and we'll see what God does." Because, you know, I don't have any-- I mean, I'm not responsible for their salvation anyway. God is, and it's up to them. So I just do what I do and let it work.

There's also many, many magazines that are very New Age, liberal area type magazines, and they have done very favourable reviews of my books. This has only happened, I would say, the last three or four years it's gathered steam. I think, you know, remember: back in the sixties and the seventies, particularly, the sixties particularly, the left wing warned about the global elite of the rich. They warned about the monied element. They warned about the use of government intelligence agencies and the police state.

Now these people are older. They're in their forties and fifties. And some of them were sort of lulled to sleep and became part of the new paradigm. You know, they were sort of seduced by the Clintons and the Gores who seem to talk the sixties language to them. They said, "Oh, isn't this wonderful? Now, one of our own is in office."

But suddenly to their horror, they found out that the FBI budget has gone up tremendously. The CIA has not been dismantled. And the Cold War is over, but suddenly satellites, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars are going to satellite surveillance. What's going on? Why, why, why is this going? And so there is now a new, Hugh, a new evaluation. And they're coming to their senses in droves.

Now, I will admit, they-- Hugh, get their books, they'll talk, I've seen these New Agers, they have their books warning about the New World Order. They'll add a little stuff in about karma and reincarnation and this silliness [laughter]. But still there is a recognition that they have. You know when I mentioned the unwashed masses of the environmental movement? I wasn't trying to be critical. And let me tell you why.

Let me give you some skeletons in my closet. I led a campaign fifteen years ago here in Austin, Texas, to save trees! I fought developers who wanted to cut huge swaths of trees. Right? And I still want to keep things like that. But, but I suddenly realized who is behind, I found out who was behind the environmental movement. And their goals are not like the average good-hearted environmentalist. These people are using the environmental movement.

See, they say, "We've got to have a world environmental authority. This problem of global warming and everything goes across national borders. And this world environmental authority has to have powers. So we have to have a world court. And of course since the laws don't work so good, we've got to have a global authority. We've got to empower the United Nations, maybe we've got to have many, many more treaties. We've got to bind down the people. We've got-- So suddenly-- And another thing, too, we can't let private property owners control their property. Why--"

You know, I don't know what your laws are there, but let -- Can I give you an example? My ministry bought a five-acre tract of land. Five acres. It's on a five-lane highway. There's subdivisions, there's office buildings close to what the first one would have

_[break in recording]_

land-locked by the subdivisions, houses and highways on all four sides. We wanted to build a new ministry building. Five acres, we were probably going to only use one acre and leave the rest natural and pretty. As I said, it's in a metropolitan area. It's on the outskirts of the city here, but it's metropolitan. Certainly not out in some forest. In the city of Austin, it's in the city limits.

Well, the city said, "Great!" The county said, "Great!" The state of Texas said, "No problem!" But! The U.S. Fish and Wildlife service said, "No, no. No, no, no. We have to protect the golden-cheeked warbler." I said, "There's no such bird, there's not even any bird nest on this property. Certainly not on the one acre or so that we want to build on." They said, "But you don't understand. Now we have the Endangered Species Act. And we have found that this bird is in this area of Texas. It's in an area about three hundred square miles. And you know, it could possibly fly and land on your property, and land in a tree. Therefore, we cannot allow you to use your property, because this bird may land there. It is habitat. Protected habitat."

I said, "But there's no nest. And no one in this area has ever seen this bird." They said, "Well, that's the point: it's so endangered. It's very rare. But, you know, I'm sorry, you can never, ever, ever for the rest of human history use your property." I said, "Well, then I don't have to pay property taxes." They said, "Oh, yes you do. Of course! You own it." I said, "Well, can I cut down a tree?" "Not anything." "Can I mow it?" "No, you can't mow it either. You must leave it in its natural state." I said, "But there's cars. You stand on the top of this lot and the traffic is horrible! In fact, we were thinking, you know, how we were going to soundproof the walls." They said, "Yes, we know that. But still, it's in our quadrant of territory here, even though it's a metro area."

And they told me-- And I said, "Well, now, the U.S. constitution says, in the fifth amendment, that private property may not be taken from a citizen without due process of law and then only with just compensation paid." You know, if they wanted to take your property, Hugh, up there in Canada, and build a library, would they have to pay you?

I should think so, yeah.

Okay. So I said, "So you want my property to protect this bird, because it's for the public good." They said, "That's right." They said, "We don't want your property. We're going to let you keep it." And there is the catch-22. They said, "We're not taking your property. It's still yours, Mr. Marrs, you and your ministry's. But you can never use it! Ever! For all of human history." Or, of course, until the great American empire falls.

And I said, "But this violates the constitution." And they said, "Oh no, the constitution says we can't take your property. We're not taking it. We're letting you keep it. And you're going to be allowed to keep it and protect this bird for the rest of your life." Well, you know, we went to try to sell that property. And nobody wanted to buy it. Who would want to buy it? You can't even build a nature trail on it.

So, this is, these are new laws in America. This was unheralded. Environmentalists loved it. They eat it up. And now there are plans called, there's a wildlands project. Ultimately they want eighty percent of America to be wildlands -- uninhabitable -- to protect the species. But what if there are farms and roads and towns and villages? They must be grazed over and left. And did you know that in Chicago outside the city, there's a huge area of forest? And they estimate there's seventy thousand trees there.

I didn't know that.

It's just a nice area. But the environmentalists now have all gotten together, environmental organizations -- they're demanding those seventy thousand trees be cut down. They say that the western, the middle western part of the United States used to be plains and prairie grass. And they want, and, but because people planted trees in metropolitan Chicago, seeds drifted in the wind and this forest, they say, is probably less that a hundred and fifty years old. And therefore it's an artificial forest. [laughter] And they want all the trees cut down and grazed so that the prairie grass can grow again like it used to be. Now I don't know, Hugh, do you call that environmentalism? They want to cut down seventy thousand trees.

They can't seem to make up their mind.

But actually, I did on my radio program, I did agree with them that it should be returned to its native state which was glaciers. Ice. Which means they must all leave the United States at once. And somehow we must allow America and Canada to return to the Ice Age. Isn't that the way it all was?

I can't imagine that getting a warm reception from the environmentalists.

No, no, it really didn't. And by the way, the newest thing here in America -- I don't know about Canada -- is to blow up all the dams. They want all the dams to go. And they've actually been successful in their first one, and now they've targeted all the dams. Once the water has run free and everything, and laid [?] all the land and everything, it all returns to its native state. Oh, how about all the hundreds of thousands of people who will lose their homes? That's just too darn bad, isn't it?

And of course, the-- Here again, we get to some very strange things-- is in the interests of certain elites to have it so, I might add. For example, like Canada. Canada and Alaska must have huge stores of oil. But you know, environmentalists don't want you to go up there and get that oil. And do you really think that Exxon, the Rockefellers, Exxon, do you really think that they want to get that oil? No! If they went up there and got that oil, the price of gasoline may drop to fifteen cents. They're more than willing for the environmentalists to win out.

Hmm.

So this is what's going on around the world, as more and more farmland is taken up here in the United States, and the small farmers put out of business, the huge conglomerates, agri-business, owned by the elite, will control all of the food supplies. So they're more than willing for all the dams to break, the water to flow, farmers to be put out of business, and that's why, you know, they had huge flooding in America last year. None of those dykes were rebuilt. The Clinton administration refused to rebuild any dykes.

Now we have El Nino. They're saying that in January, February and March, especially March, there will be tremendous flooding. And all of those people will be, it will all happen all over again and even worse. The environmentalists don't want the dykes to be built. They say the farms should have never been there. They want it to be natural like it used to be, without the dykes and the dams. And the Clinton administration, being environmentally crazy -- and, I might add, controlled by the elite -- want it to be so. The price of food will skyrocket, the agribusiness concerns will profit, and they will be very, very happy.

All of this in order to bring about a global depopulation?

Well, the global depopulation will make it easier for the elite to control us. I believe we see this in Africa. I call it the killing of Africa. What happened in Rwanda and Burundi? One million people slaughtered. I want you to imagine the Presidents of Rwanda and Burundi were invited to a conference. They came back as friends, flying back in the same aircraft. Nobody knows what happened, but the aircraft exploded in midair. Some people believe it was a missile. Both the presidents were killed.

And then suddenly, many people say the United Nations workers instigated massacres, setting tribes against tribes. And many, many people believe, of course, the World Health Organization began the AIDS epidemic, and that there is experimentation with Ebola and others, always in Africa. And I call it the killing of Africa. You know, I call it -- I believe what's going to happen is the recolonization of Africa. It will be more smooth this time. This time they will use the Mandelas. You know, before they had their white people in office. Now they will have their black slaves in office. The Mandelas kiss the boots of the Rockefellers and Rothschilds. When Rothschild says, "Jump," Mandela says, "How high, Bwana?" And that's the way it is, Hugh, in Africa.

People said when, when Mandela goes into power, the Rothschilds and the De Beers diamond mines and gold mines will be taken over by the government and nationalized. I knew better than that. I told everyone, that's stupid. I had people that said gold will go to five thousand dollars an ounce because South Africa's gold mines will be closed when Mandela takes office. I said that's stupid.

Mandela is owned by these people. And he's a communist and he's owned by these people, and they'll, he'll do whatever they say in the end. In the end he does whatever they say. And he hasn't touched their diamond mines or gold mines. And he won't.

So, so we have this situation worldwide -- I know in Canada there, your huge hydro waterworks is controlled by Maurice Strong, who is the, was the head of the environmental program of the United Nations. He now is in charge of Kofi Anan, the UN Secretary-General's United Nations reform program. So Maurice Strong is a Canadian and one of the elite, although I do believe he is just a small man. But, but he's very powerful in the UN, in some of these bureaucracies, but his money was given to him by the elite. But they're -- Why are they interested in water? The water companies there in Canada? Why are they being controlled?

Presumably to, to just have one more method of control of the population.

Absolutely.

Water and food.

[garbled] I'm convinced of that. And they do. They really do. At the same time [garbled] Canadian, has control of water rights for most of the state of Colorado. And right now, there are court suits going on in Colorado, the little people taking Maurice Strong to court, claiming that he has plans to siphon off water, you know, and dry up thousands and thousands of acres owned by other people. He owns, because he owns certain water rights, of aqueducts, of spring systems under the ground, because he owns tremendous numbers of acreage of property in the Baca Grande region of Colorado.

How did he get that? How did he get the hydro works there in Canada? How did he become the United Nations environmental program director? How did he become the founder and organiser of the United Nations, the Earth Summit down in Rio de Janeiro in 92 or so? These are all questions that I think can be answered if you understand the goals of the elite.

To control the earth they need to cause people to believe in a grand program of globalism. And the environmental -- I think that is what they latched on to today, the environmental movement. And so you can quote Texe Marrs, an original environmentalist, who was a tree-saver in Austin, Texas.

But I got, I got born again off that. Because I began to realize, and I did not want to be con-- to help these men, and especially taking away private property. And, and you know, I want to mention to you, no one seems to feel sorry for a big lumber company when the government says you can't cut down trees, you know, in this huge area. Aw, who cares?

But what people don't know here in America, and the press won't report it, is little people -- I can tell you of a man in Galveston, Texas, who retired at the age of 70, he and his wife? And the, and the had saved all their money on a little lot, little postage stamp lot really, and they were told they could never build on their lot. Because it was wetlands. Didn't matter that it was miles from the beach. [laughter] And we're talking about

[Dang! What might he have said? What could it be? Damn the temporal limitations of cassette tapes!]

to bring it back to its natural state.

Yeah, this man said, "I came, I emigrated to the United States from Hungary, where I was under domination. I will not let the government take away my right, my freedom." My wife -- he was a factory worker, saved all our lives. He, he had bought the lot, put a little house there, small, modest house for some forty thousand dollars. Well, that house is no longer there any more, Hugh, because that man was arrested and he was tried as an eco- criminal. And he was convicted. And then the bulldozers came and took the house down. And that man was convicted and given a prison sentence.

So, this is happening in America. No one will speak for these people. No one cares. And I ask the people that read the loop: do you care?

So what can we do? I mean, not just about smaller issues like that, although I don't wish to trivialize--

He's a little man.

--this man's prison sentence. But in a larger sense, with this global elite and their emerging plan to take control of us.

Well you see, I believe many, many good people are on the side of environmentalism. But they don't realize they're being used. Many people say the United Nations is a very good thing. We want world peace. They don't realize they're being used.

And so, you know, I've been born again in all of these areas when I understood the agenda. I believe what we can do is to educate ourself. And, and believe me, the founders probably of Canada, I know of the United States, tried to establish a system which would tie the politicians in knots. And would limit the power of money. For example, in the United States we did not have a national bank. The elite wanted one. It was disapproved by the people. The elite did not want to put the rights of the people in the constitution. And that's why we have our Bill of Rights. And note, Hugh, those Bill of Rights were not part of the original constitution. They're the first ten amendments. Why wasn't it in the original constitution? The elite didn't want it.

But the little people rose up. They educated themselves. I believe of the seventeenth, of the late seventeen hundreds were much more educated and public-minded than the people of Canada and the United States today. And so today we really are on some kind of a mind drug. I think it's the media, it's television, it's the radio, it's the magazines. There has sprung up hope, a system of alternative news, throughout Canada and the United States. And this system -- the Internet is part of it. But shortwave radio is another thing. And then there's the thousands of the small newsletters and magazines.

And I, I make an appeal to the liberals -- yes, I'm making an appeal to the left. Do not trust Mr. Chretien, do not trust Mr. Clinton, because they say, "We're left." Don't believe these jerks. They are evil men. They're ungodly men. And they do not, they do not believe in the average Canadian and his or her rights. Do not believe in these people. Do not believe in the government. So I, I appeal to people to educate yourself. You know, imagine: if I say there is a conspiracy in the world, Hugh, what harm does that do?

Probably not much.

Not much. It causes some people to call me crazy and zany and kook. Okay. Now, if that's all it should, the very most, I am just sort of an eccentric kook, okay? To many people. Why then, is such horrible emotion, hatred and venom spewed out at the so- called conspiratorial-minded people? They hate us. Right now they accuse us of hate crimes. They accuse us of the most vile things. How can what I put in print, unless if there's a call to action to harm people, how can it hurt anybody? If I say Chretien is controlled by super-rich elite, what is the harm of that, especially if I document it? Why would Canada call that a hate crime?

I ask the people of Canada: educate yourself. Why did Chretien suddenly change his mind about the WTO and NAFTA and so forth? Who twisted his arm? Why is he so dead-set on going along with the World Trade Organization and globalism? Who benefits? Always ask who benefits. That's the key. But I really, you know, I'm not one, I must say -- there's a lot of people in America right now, I think it's growing, you know, people are ready to fight these people with arms if necessary. At least from a defensive standpoint. Well, I -- there may be a place for that somewhere, but I'm not, I haven't been called to do that. I've only been called to educate.

People must, they must educate. I go back to the Bible. It says without knowledge, God's people perish. And I would, I think that's what Jefferson and Madison, all the others said. Same thing. To educate the people. But I call on the people of Canada to, to educate themselves, to know. You know, Peter Warren can say, "Texe Marrs is a kook." Texe Marrs responds, "Don't listen to the Peter Warrens on radio. Get my book. And read it." You say, "Well, you're just trying to make money." Go to your library. Ask your library to order a copy so that ten thousand people can read it. I mean, one book in your library, how much does Texe Marrs make? Fifty cents on a royalty? Is it going to make me rich to have it in the Vancouver Public Library?

Probably --

You know what I'm saying?

Probably not.

Yeah, I -- [laughter] That's not my purpose. But read my book and then say if Peter Warren -- is he wrong or is Texe Marrs? My books are documented. You know the criticisms I get, Hugh?

What's that?

They're people who have never read my books! They listen to the media, who say if you believe in a conspiracy you're a kook. And so they never read for themselves. They're dumbed down. And they don't read, they don't understand. They don't know. And I want to say one final thing: Once people know and discover this for themselves, whether they're left-wing or right-wing, it changes them.

Everything follows after that.

Everything follows. Sir Winston Churchill once said, he said at one time in a man's life, at one time or another, the truth hits him. That's interesting that, you know, Winston Churchill believed in a global conspiracy, by the way, of the elite, and he wrote about it. But he said, it literally knocks most men down when they come face to face with the truth. But most men get up, brush themselves off and go about their business as if nothing happened. But the men who don't -- it changes them. And then they know. And you know, I don't think that I'm a nut. You know what I think I am?

What's that?

To use a New Age term, I'm more aware. Now, I don't accept what I read in the newspapers. I say, "Is this true? I will find out the facts for myself." And if everybody did that in Canada, I think that your freedoms could possibly be preserved.

Okay. Mr. Marrs, I've taken up a great deal of your time. I just have one last question, and it's sort of a little different from what we've been talking about. If I was to come down and visit you in Austin, Texas, where would you take me? What do you like about living in Austin and what would you show me? The ministry, obviously, but what else is there that you would recommend in Austin, Texas to a visitor?

I would take you and just show you the beautiful hill country here.

Really?

Yeah. It is so, it is so -- it's a lot like Vancouver. When I drove into Vancouver, it was so beautiful. And I remember going out at night and driving back and I looked down and I could see the city, if I can remember, all the lights, and everything there--

Yes.

Is that right?

Yeah. I've done that a couple times myself and it is gorgeous.

It is gorgeous. And, but it's very hilly here, beautiful, huge oak trees. It's just, it's just absolutely beautiful. And there's lakes all over the place, water. Green and clean, by the way. [laughter] And I don't mind being restricted, as long as you don't take a man's land from him. I don't want garbage to be thrown into those lakes, they're too beautiful. So, yeah, that's what I would do. I would show you the beautiful nature of Austin, Texas. It is absolutely gorgeous.

And we have, you know, our downtown. We have the state capitol building. It's the largest state capitol in the United States. Built by Masons, of course. [laughter] And of, it is, there's a big Masonic, you know, plaque sort of thing, you know. And many of the Canadian things, too, are that way. Buildings, different buildings.

In any case, it's just -- the nature of this place is absolutely beautiful. Most people think that Texas is all prairie and cactus and tumbleweed. But we don't have any of that stuff. Well, we do have cacti. But you'll see cacti right in an oak tree forest. It's really strange, yeah, beautiful. Anyway that's what I'd show him.

Okay. Well, thank you again for your time. It's been a very, a very fascinating interview, and I've taken up a great deal more time than the half hour that was originally allotted. Now, one thing I wanted to ask. I'll be mentioning the website in the article.

Sure.

But your personal assistant had also asked if we could mention an 800 number that you had, and I was quite willing to do that.

They may not do that. You know, some of these magazines won't let you do that. But I would love for you to do that. You might let people know that again, judge for themselves. They can call that 1-800 number and get our newsletter. And you get our newsletter, Hugh?

I do indeed. But I don't have the 800 number right by me.

Okay, I'll give that to you. And I want to mention to you, as you know, we have tapes and books in there. But -- you will attest to this, I'm sure -- I have never called you, no one has ever called you and said, "Buy this," or -- I have never sent a fund-raising thing.

Absolutely.

In all the years we've been here, no one's ever got that. We offer those things. I hope that people will order them, because, you know, we need to keep going. But we're going to send the newsletter anyway, and no one will ever call. I, and what I do is if people don't order anything after about a year or so, I'll put a little letter in there saying, you know, if you don't order anything, we're going to have to cut you. That's about all I do. Because we try to be good stewards. You know, we've given it a year to you, and please send us fifty cents, to keep you going a year, another year.

But in any case, it's absolutely free, we don't have any fundraising, no telemarketing, nobody will call. You don't have to worry about that. Our 1-800 number is 1-800 -- Oh wait, I'm sorry, it won't work in Canada.

Oh, will it not?

No, I, you know, we need to change that. We're destroying our good Canadian friends! You know, I've been thinking about -- I'm glad that came up. That's been in the back of my mind for a long time to get the phone company to change that. But right now, yeah, we don't. Folks can write us at our address.

Okay, yeah, we've got the address, and we'll probably put that in, but we'll certainly put in the website. I think most of the readers of the loop in the last survey had web browsers and computers and whatnot.

They do that. In there they can click and order automatically our newsletter. So, and our newsletter every month is posted there as well. Sometimes, I must admit, we're a couple weeks late, you know. I have to get my guy to go in there and design it, put it on the web, unfortunately. But anyway, it eventually gets into the, and they can access all my, at least eighteen months we've been on, all of those newsletters.

Okay. Well, thank you once again for your time. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Same here. And God bless you, Hugh.

Next: Afterword